John Meurig Thomas interviewed by Alan Macfarlane 29th November and 5th
December 2007

0:09:07 Born in South Wales in a small mining village in 1932; maternal
grandfather was a gardener in the Swansea valley and paternal grandfather was a
farmer and engine driver in Carmarthan; father was a coal miner who worked his
way up to being an overman which was the highest you could go without
qualifications; he worked in an extremely lively village with lots of music and
drama, also sport; father went to the First World War which influenced him
profoundly; [awarded the military medal for bravery in Gallipoli]it was his
university; he fought in Galipoli, the Somme, North Africa etc.; he taught me a
great deal; he had great linguistic skills but hopeless mathematically; there
were five children and I was the last but one; my one brother [twelve years
older] was also a coal miner all his life; two older sisters and a younger one
who died of infantile paralysis aged eight; brought up the the Gwendraeth
Valley where the coal mines run out and beyond which is the agricultural area;
the setting of Dylan Thomas's 'Fern Hill'; what was so nice about Gwendraeth
Grammar School was that there was a mingling of the sons and daughters of
farmers and miners; big contrast, the former were lugubrious and slow while the
latter were much more alert; it was a rugby school with four Welsh
international players from there; teaching was excellent; brilliantly taught by
a physics mistress, Irene James, who told me about Michael Faraday; I kept in
touch with her until her death; she had the gift of not just telling us what
physics was about but adding biographical details of great scientists; Michael
Faraday became my hero; one of my greatest joys was much later to occupy the
Chair that was created for him and to do the job that he did at one time as
Director of the Royal Institution; Irene James was sitting in the front row for
my inaugural lecture there; mother left school aged twelve; she had none of my
father's linguistic skills; throughout her life she spoke to me in Welsh; my
father decided when I was ten that my English was so attrocious and was
petrified that I might not pass 11+ that from then on he spoke to me only in
English and  expected me to answer in the same; mother one of nine children;
she was shrewd and had a phenomenal memory which I think I have inherited; have
found that some of the best scientist have amazing memories eg. Linus Pauling;
I was also Welsh walking race champion and played cricket for the University of
Wales; a reluctant rugby player but played first class cricket for South Wales
and Monmouthshire until I became a professor;  chapels in South Wales
marvellous places for choral music [and for outstanding preachers]; at about
six heard the choir sing 'The Creation'; at an early age took a great interest
in bird watching encouraged by my father; also collected birds eggs but very
responsibly, only taking one egg when there were five or six; Welsh words for
birds; also read Mee's "Children's Encyclopedia" where I pondered on a writer,
Dorothy Crowfoot, who turned out to be Dorothy Crowfoot Hodgkin the Nobel Prize
winner; got to know her very well and told her how she had influenced me as a
child; J.B.S. Haldane also influenced me; he was an ardent Communist and wrote
articles in the 'Daily Worker'; in the barber's shop where I grew up the local
Communist, one of several passionate, well-informed individuals, would deliver
the 'Daily Worker' free of charge every morning to the three barber's shops;
there I read Haldane's scientific articles; one, on being the right size,
another on the atmosphere of planets; he induced my interest in science a great
deal

13:05:10 Up until school certificate in 1949 I did not really know what I
wanted to do; R.A. Butler's Education Act of 1944 meant that I could go to
school free; when I started Grammar School my father had to pay; at 'A' level I
enjoyed myself; had done quite well in geography, English literature, physics
and mathematics and I wanted to do physics, mathematics and geography; the
headmaster decreed that the timetable would not allow that so told to take
chemistry; only pupil in that class, during the first hour would talk about
rugby and the second would do chemistry; read an extremely important book by
Eric James, later Lord Rushholme, then chemistry master at Winchester,
'Problems in Physical Chemistry'; found the academic life of the sixth form
exhilarating; went to Swansea University where I was also extremely well taught
by people appointed by John S. Fulton, later Vice-Chancellor of the University
of Sussex, who really understood what universities were about; he was really
inspiring; first year students had to write essays on broad subjects
fortnightly, and then, four at a time, read them to him and have an hour's
conversation; impressive that he took the time to do this; also every Tuesday
afternoon each first year student had to go into the largest lecture theatre to
hear such persons as Isaah Berlin speak; so in a small provincial college had a
first class education

20:41:04 Chemistry is a pretty central subject as it sits within natural
sciences so that you can look at the biological world, the medical world, the
physical world and earth science; I am a physical chemist by description but I
do my work these days in an area called catalysis; in a literal sense there is
something magical about a catalyst which has the ability to accelerate the
combination of two or more reagents and give you a product; not only that but
there is a knack associated with designing a catalyst such that it gives you a
particular product; my job is to design a solid, a crystal usually, where I
have "placed" a group of atoms which, when they are exposed to an incoming
reactant they convert it to a desirable product; nylon at present is produced
in a very environmentally harmful way, from oil and benzine, then concetrated
nitric acid, sulphuric acid etc.; for very kilogram of nylon you produce four
kilograms of waste; with a post-doctoral worker produced a "green" sythesis of
nylon, published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (US); this
does not mean that the manufacture has been changed as I was doing this as an
intellectural excercise and a proof of the value of laboratory chemistry;
dislike of patents although I have taken some out; I have often been supported
in my work by big companies; the Bayer company saw my work in Cambridge and
were extremely interested; I sent my post-doctoral worker over to Germany where
they have excellent facilities; German chemistry is the best in the world and
the big German companies have been dominant; Bayer liked what we were doing and
filed patents in our name; most of my work has been sponsored by the Science
Research Council or Engineering and Physical Science Research Council or by the
University, but from time to time because of the nature of my work as it is
immediately applicable in industry, I have got grants from companies towards
research but refuse to sell out to multinationals; fear big companies linking
themselves to prestigious universities such as Cambridge and trading on the
connection; the duty of the university is primarily to pursue knowledge and
exploit it; of course, have to be realistic as big companies pay taxes that
sustain our universities; rules are much clearer in America; embedded research
institutes like those funded by Microsoft and BP in Cambridge have access to
all seminars within the university but the university does not have access to
all of theirs; I am disturbed by this; experience of one of my old students who
found himself lecturing to just such a mission-oriented multinational group
when he had expected to be giving an open lecture

33:47:00 After finishing my PhD which I did in Queen Mary College, London, as
my supervisor, Keble Sykes, went there; I then stupidly joined the Atomic
Energy Authority and worked in the atomic weapons research establishment; I
need not have gone into a reserved occupation as all those who had graduated
with first class honours were excussed; somehow struck by the idea that the
equipment side at Aldermaston was so good that I would enjoy myself there; even
after a few weeks I realized that this was the wrong place to be; I am
ambivalent at best about atomic weapons and didn't want to be there; got an
assistant lectureship at Bangor; delightful to immerse myself in North Wales
culture; my Welsh improved enormously; signed up for the extra-mural courses
and lectured at evening venues; for two years running I gave a twenty-five
lecture course on the history and evolution of science; enjoyed lecturing to
school children in both English and Welsh; was allowed freedom of research; at
one stage Bangor had five fellows of the Royal Society which was pretty good
for a provincial university; I left when a new professor came and it was
obvious that he wanted to starve me of research students and even stop me doing
research; he wanted these students for his own research; by that stage I was a
Reader, which I had become aged thirty-two, and had done some good work,
winning the Corday-Morgan prize for the best chemical research for a person
under the age of thirty-six; also an award from American Carbon Society; got
the Chair at Aberystwyth which was an exhilarating period of my life; it was a
well-organised department with a Principal and Registrar who were very able;
also able to attract people from Cambridge, Oxford, India, Japan, Russia - I
built up a department of solid state chemistry which was probably the best in
the world; invited to take professorships at Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool,
Edinburgh and London, but wasn't interested because I was so happy there; my
children spoke Welsh, bird watching was wonderful, my wife was doing a higher
degree in comparative religion; I was intending to stay there for the rest of
my life but then I heard that Cambridge was going to offer me a professorship;
agonised over it fearing I might drown in Cambridge, so full of extraordinary
people; would my children be happy as my younger daughter, aged six at that
time, spoke no English; we came, and it was one of the best things I ever did

42:45:11 I came to King's in 1978; loved the elderly people who sat in the
Combination Room before dinner: Meyer Fortes, Clifford Derby, Kendall Dixon,
Braithwaite, Christopher Morris, Patrick Wilkinson, Michael Jaffe - all
befriended me; Dan Brown persuaded me to come as I knew very little about
Cambridge; I had lectured in the metallurgy department in March 1974; I walked
up from the Backs towards King's and couldn't believe how beautiful the place
was; I could have gone to three or four other colleges but Mansell Davies at
Aberystwyth stressed the quality of the music at King's; the Provost, Edmund
Leach, was a strange man; met him first with Dan Brown and Martin Rees; Hal
Dixon and wife's Christmas parties; Charlie Loke; Tom White; Bernhard Williams;
Sidney Brenner; Gabriel Horn and I were admitted the same night; Patrick
Bateson; thought at first some of the younger fellows who were very left-wing
were what I would describe as cocktail party socialists; had been brought up
with true socialists; found that mingling with people in other subjects
valuable; wonderful music in chapel where Philip Ledger was then in charge
followed by Stephen Cleobury who is a friend to this day; David Willcocks

Second part

0:09:07 My immediate predecessor as Professor was Jack Linnett; a wonderful
human being who became Master of Sydney Sussex and then Vice-Chancellor; he was
immersed in administration as a consequence; the Department of Physical
Chemistry was not as efficiently run as other chemistry departments; found some
of the technicians were growing tomatoes as no one was checking on what they
were doing; the real impact was to find how bright the Cambridge students are
where nine out of ten were capable of becoming PhD students; giving
supervisions was some of the most exhilarating teaching I have ever done;
students amazingly able and could tackle problems that even I was unsure about;
wish in some ways I had come when younger and then I would have done even more;
memories of Lawrence Bragg; purpose of the Royal Institution; Bragg was the
youngest Nobel Prize winner at twenty-five, a crystallographer; also had the
ability to describe science in simple terms; father, W.H. Bragg, also a great
communicator and Dorothy Hodgkin apparently became a scientist having heard him
give the Christmas lectures at the Royal Institution; have given these lectures
myself

8:03:05 Story of Michael Faraday; James Clark Maxwell; Faraday has been my lode
star, I have lived in his home, have read most of his letters, articles and
journals; had to resign my fellowship at King's when I went to the Royal
Institution (in 1986); I would have stayed there but my wife became ill and I
was advised that the strain of entertaining was not good for her; I had a short
period as Deputy Pro-Chancellor of the University of Wales, a part-time job,
while still resaerching in the Royal Institution; in 1993 came back to
Cambridge as Master of Peterhouse; I really enjoyed it although it is a
right-wing college and I am left of centre; found even the right-wing fellows
were nice people; a small college is even better than a big one at getting
people to interact; physicist Peter Scheuer; Aaron Klug; Hugh Trevor-Roper; one
great thing about being Master is that you can help people; critical role of
Senior Tutor in a college; most important job for a Master is to choose
fellows, especially research fellows, which I took extremely seriously

Third part

0:09:07 Preparation for a Mastership; Peterhouse had the reputation of being a
history college but the number of active historians was few; both Max Smith and
Tony Wrigley had gone; however there were four Nobel prizewinners in chemistry
on the staff - Max Perutz, Aaron Klug, John Kendrew and Archer Martin; also
Frank Whittle inventor of the jet engine and Christopher Cockerell inventor of
the hovercraft etc.; Ted Kenney, great expert on Ovid; universities as moral
places; joy of being able to help people as Master; one criteria of a
successful Master is how well your students perform; results tables; two people
important in this respect, the Admissions Tutor and the Senior Tutor;  joy of
sitting with people and enquiring about their work; Brendon Simms, historian;
being Master of a larger college like Trinity would be a much more difficult
job; in a small college you could get to know everyone; I knew all the students
by name as my wife and I had lunch once a week with them; only seventy seven
first year students

8:43:16 Memories of Max Perutz; knew him for thirty years; cultured Viennese
Jew; he was phenomenally able and a hard worker with extraordinary intellectual
energy; widely read and loved writing book reviews; his rules about running a
laboratory and getting to know and involve the technicians; giving credit for
work done by junior researchers; Francis Crick joined him aged about thirty
four; Perutz showed him a paper written by himself and Lawrence Bragg which was
going for publication; came back full of red marks and Perutz said that
elsewhere in the world a student would never say such things, but this is the
British system; reason why he loved British candour; gave an eightieth birthday
celebration where Hermann Bondi was a guest; had both been sent to Canada
during the war as thought by Churchill to be dangerous; his laboratory
generated fourteen Nobel Prize winners which he explained by it being an open
society

16:03:16 Aaron Klug, by training a chemist, switched to physics and then to
biology; he quantified electron microscopy in such a way that it enabled future
generations of biologists etc. to solve the structure of viruses and membranes
of a living cell; impossible to do before him; Roger Kornberg, Nobel Prize
winner in 2006, and Jean Thomas worked under his tutelage; zinc fingers; he was
the tutor in natural sciences at Peterhouse at the time he was winning his
Nobel Prize; his predecessor, John Kendrew, did exactly the same; they were not
University staff but college staff; John Kendrew also taught the history of
science, physics and chemistry, while doing his Nobel Prize work on myoglobin;
that is the genius of Cambridge

19:38:12 People pursue excellence in Cambridge; music in King's one example;
fiercely able people like Martin Rees, teaming with ideas, restless for more
knowledge and very good at communicating it; great thing about students in
Cambridge is that they are the beneficiarys of three things: very good lectures
(on the whole), they themselves have been carefully chosen, the supervision
system; own experience of other universities shows there is not this
conjunction of qualities, except in Oxford; why we are in the first league of
universities in the world; set in train decades ago, whatever the Government
did or the governance of the University; in moments of gloom think it is
ungovernable as it is so complicated; own experience of being brought up among
people who worked manually; to be given the freedom to be in libraries,
laboratories, to mingle with people of a similar disposition with a thirst for
knowledge, what a pleasure

23:11:12 Have always had a deep religious sympathy; wife was a Biblical
scholar; owe a great deal to the Biblical belt in Wales; not a convinced
Christian and the older I get the more mysterious and mystifying I find life to
be; I would like to believe though I can't; I think of the incredible
contributions that religion has made and am not in the same camp as Richard
Dawkins etc.; much more in the camp of John Polkinghorne and Tony Hewish; did
not have any discomfort with role in Chapel; unsatisfying nature of the 'big
bang' theory

28:25:10 I walk about three miles every day, partly to keep physically fit but
partly for mental stocktaking; in Wales I used to walk up the hills and even go
into a field of sheep and lecture them; start work as soon as I get up and work
all day apart from my walk; advice to students would be not to waste time,
every day is precious, learn some new facts every day and understand the
theoretical interpretation of those facts; read, read, read, and write, write,
write; one of the best pieces of advice I was given was by the Principal of
Swansea, John Fulton, was if you didn't understand something, write down what
you did understand and did not; you usually do not write nonsense to yourself;
I used to rewrite every lecture note that I took and became a better chemist as
a result; believe that I understand things better by trying to articulate them

33:15:08 For a long time industrial chemistry has been rather profligate in the
way that it has used resources of nature and reagents which are harmful to the
environment; this needn't have been so but because there was no legislation,
and because they were cheaper and more convenient, people used materials that
we now realize should never have been used; you can as a clever chemist design
catalysts that can use oxidants like air or oxygen; my last ten to fifteen
years have been a pursuit for green chemistry; I have been assembling catalysts
in a solid form such that they can oxidise in a gentle way a material using air
or oxygen; a benign thing to do; I have always been interested in developing
new experimental techniques; proud of the fact that in the mid-sixties I
realized that the electron microscope was a vitally important tool for the
chemist; when I got to Aberystwyth I had three and there wasn't another
department in the world that had them; now there is not a department of
chemistry that does not; some prizes I have won have come because of work on
the chemical side of microscopy; use of synchrotron radiation in chemistry at
the Royal Institution; enable one to take pictures of a molecule or even atoms
in a picosecond

38:16:16 Sir Brian Pippard